Brian Michael Bendis and Matt Fraction are two of the best-selling writers in comics. Bendis is celebrating his tenth year as a Marvel writer and has contributed greatly to the publishers' Marvel Universe and their Ultimate Universe. In addition, his creator-owned project, Powers (drawn and co-created by Mike Oeming) has found a home at Icon. Matt Fraction has carved out his own niche in the Marvel U., with Uncanny X-Men and Iron Man, and he's about to tackle the God of Thunder, Thor. Since the two writers live in the same city, we asked them to get together and have a conversation and allow us -- and YOU -- to be a fly on the wall. Both Brian and Matt are special guests at this year's Comic-Con International. This conversation -- conducted in late January 2010 -- is an extended version of an article that appeared in the Winter 2010 issue of Comic-Con Magazine.

Brian: The funny thing is Matt and I have had an inordinate amount of family dinners together this week so we're running out of stuff to talk about.

Matt: Talk about your class actually. Let's start with that.

Brian: I'm teaching here at Portland State. I'm teaching a writing class so I feel very empowered as a writer lately. It's been very good for me personally on top of just a lot of fun to do, but I'm teaching a college course on writing graphic novels.

Matt: For any writer.

Brian: I literally have students from all walks of life, some of who are already published, some of who are desperately trying to create their graphic novel. Just hungry, hungry, hungry. We're looking at documentaries, we've got guest lecturers, we're going through Scott McCloud's work, we're going through Will Eisner's work. It's been very good.

Matt: I know from stalking each other the way we do that this has clearly had an energizing effect on you. Your fundamentals have been refreshed and you kind of have a fire about you when you talk about this stuff, which is really fascinating to me.

Brian: It's focused me in a great way and it's actually very good timing as we're doing this interview. Siege is done and we're embarking on Marvel's Heroic Age, which to me almost feels like—even though I'm still writing The Avengers—I feel like I'm taking over The Avengers from another writer. My brain kind of feels that way too. So it's a good feeling and something I hope a lot of our peers get during their careers, you know what I mean. It feels like good timing to feel so focused. And also the kids are teaching me as much as I'm teaching them. It's like Dead Poets Society for nerds. They're all captains. We're seizing the day.

Matt, what we haven't talked about is you're in the middle of a giant Iron Man storyline that is only broken up into trades because there are convenient places to do so. It's a very, very large story, not dissimilar from the length and intensity of my Daredevil run.

Matt: Yeah, it was me looking at you on Daredevil and Ed Brubaker on Captain America, which are like runs for the ages, if you know what I mean. And as time goes on when people talk about how do you do these single characters in long runs, you guys are going to be spoken of. So those are definitely models.

Brian: I'm excited for you and I feel the nervous energy even when we're having dinner. I feel the nervous energy as you begin to cook what hopefully will be a long run on Thor as well. I also know what it feels like: oh you did it on Iron Man and now can you do it on Thor? Can you do it again? And I've been there because when I went from Daredevil to Avengers I was like can I do it again? Will they allow me to do it again? Now people have gone from expecting almost nothing from you to everything. So that's an eye opener that never goes away.

Matt: Not to continue to wax your car but using you as a way to kind of way to frame the discussion, you know you were doing Daredevil and Ultimate Spider-Man at the same time, you know what I mean?

Brian: No one expected anything from me on Ultimate Spider-Man. I'm talking about you're now embarking—and not to make you nervous—but you're embarking on something where your standard has been set.

Matt: I'm trying to outrace myself, that's what I feel like. I feel creatively, whatever I was able to do on Iron Man, whatever I take away from that experience that is where the bar is on Thor now. So in this one Thor loses the hammer and gets stupid. I'm just going to start redoing all the Iron Man stories in Thor and see if anybody notices.

Brian: Just blow it all up and then have people yell at you for three years.

Matt: Exactly.

Brian: And by the time you do something right they're still yelling at you for the thing you did.

Matt: Although the good news is that I can have Thor and Iron Man show up in each other's books now and I don't have to ask anybody.

Brian: That is nice.

Matt: Yeah it is like having Frasier on Cheers. It's not a big deal.

Brian: I know it's like a different genre completely, writing Thor and Iron Man. Are you coming at the work in a different way?

Matt: Between X-Men and Iron Man, and now Thor, each one is such a wildly different animal. It's a lot like cross training. There are different muscle groups in doing sit-ups, which isn't like doing pull-ups or whatever. Running a mile isn't the same as swimming a lap. So each one is just kind of a unique experience on its own. And when I get sort of stuck or blocked—blocked is maybe the wrong word— but just kind of unsatisfied with the way one is going, there's plenty of stuff to do on the other, you know?

Brian: Right, exactly.

Matt: It keeps things hopping. And especially too when you're dealing with big ensemble books versus single character books it's a completely different. You might as well be wearing different clothes when you write them, they're such different jobs. Now going forward, especially where Avengers is at as we're speaking, balance that with something more mono-focused like Ultimate Spider-Man. Tell me what the shape and size of your Avengers hat is compared to the shape and size of your Spidey hat.

Brian: Well, I hire neighborhood kids to write The Avengers for me so I haven't really looked at that book in a couple years.

Matt: Lots of typos, lots of typos...

Brian: The point I was making is it's funny to me when people look at comics as a genre or superheroes as a genre unto itself and they refer to it in movies or in comics. And then here you are writing Thor and Iron Man and even though they're related in a way, those two books couldn't be more different in genre and type and tone and yet they're considered the same. It's a little maddening actually. I felt the same when I was writing Ultimate Spider- Man and The Avengers at the same time, which I've been doing for a while. Yeah it doesn't even feel like it's the same medium to me. I mean a whole different part of my brain's being used. And they both have Spider-Man in them. But they're just completely—to me—different and it's odd to me. It's also the relationship those books have to most of their audience is completely different too. And I'm excited for you to feel that as well.

You mentioned going back to Casanova. I think you getting back to creator-owned while you're doing work for hire is going to be a fantastic explosion in your brain, much like teaching has been for me. I think you're going to find them rubbing up against each other as often as they do and servicing different parts of your brain as often they do to be a very, very great writing experience for you. It's going to be a very full writing experience. So people who ask how do you write so much or why do you write so much...[my response is] I kind of have to and only when you're doing both do you realize yeah, no I have to. I have to have a book where I'm not allowed to swear and have to come up with creative ways not to do that and at the same time it's great that I have a book where I can swear and that's unfettered by any rule.

Matt: Yeah you don't have to call anybody, you don't have to vet anything, you can just do whatever crazy thought comes into your mind: you can blow the entire cast up to start over. Having that freedom is invigorating. I know when I'm stuck, when I'm figuring, you know when stuff's on the stove and I'm not like physically typing but you're doing that sort of thinking. We joked about this the other day, but I know how I sit and I'm watching Blue's Clues with my kid but really I'm writing. I'm problem solving in my head. I'm ruining a dinner because I'm staring at the wall trying to resolve a story problem that I can't stop thinking about but am not physically typing. There's definitely times when stuff just has to come to a boil on the stove and you're not actually writing. But I kind of don't know what to do with myself. If I've got stuff figured, if stuff is cooked and ready to be typed, I can only not type it for maybe a day or so before I just get antsy. I don't know what else to do but write.

Brian: What Matt's talking about was a very interesting thing I think writers like. I had a nice offer from another company that isn't Marvel to hire me to write something but they wanted to hire me at an hourly rate to be an employee of the company and I, for the life of me, neither I or my lawyer could figure out how on Earth would you bill for that, because I'm writing all the time. I'm writing in the shower. My kids are watching iCarly and I'm writing, like I'm staring off into space and I'm writing. How do you bill that? So that was the thing is to figure out I'll have to bill you 24 hours a day. It never shuts off.

Matt: A perfect example of this: I was in the shower and came up in my head with the conversation that Pepper and Tony have where we reveal his memory loss is so profound he doesn't remember who Happy Hogan is. And the idea of Tony asking Pepper, "Who's Happy?" just really hit me. I was like, oh that's the scene. And I was in the shower and I was afraid I was going to forget it so I wrote it on the window—we had a shower at the time with a window looking out into the backyard which was super awesome for the neighbors. But it was fogged up so I wrote on the fog on the glass, "Who's Happy?" just so I didn't forget. And then I wrote it down, put it in my notebook and it was locked into place. So the next time my wife took a shower and it steamed up she saw written on the window like a suicide note, "Who's happy?" She asked me what is that? And I had to explain, I'm perfectly happy. I'm delighted with my life.

Brian: That's funny. That's very funny.

Matt: But it's always happening. I've always got a notebook with me.

Brian: You should have answered her like the little kid in The Shining with your finger: "I'm happy, Mrs. Fraction."

Matt: I've been in a room with you while you were typing and have kind of asked and it's always this kind of awkward thing because I've really always wanted to pick your brain about this. But tell me: I've gotten into note cards and I have notebooks and I tend to gather stuff on paper and then transfer it to file. I need the plot and I sort of look at things and it's almost sculptural where I need to be able to physically move stuff and rearrange things. It's a very sloppy process I have to get my outlines into shape. But just kind of generally to feel my way through a story, I need to kind of place stuff and I need to be able to see the entire game board, do you know what I mean? Tell me how you plot this stuff out. Tell me how you go from, "oh, hey...I want to do a story where the Avengers get together because all the super villains break out of The Raft. How do you turn that notion into a script? Walk me through what your process is like...

Brian: The good news is for me is that it's always different. We have a lot of writer friends and people that we know who have almost a format that they hold to. And I think that any sort of format for me would have been the death of me career wise about four years ago because I write too much stuff for it all to have the same flavor or to all be coming from the same place. So basically, I'm a big asker of why? Why is this story being written? This is a big one for me. Why are we telling this story? Sometimes it could be anything as simple as an image. There's an image in my head that I have to get rid of by writing a story for it or the characters themselves have dictated an arc of story that allows me to tell a story. And then I literally start jotting it down.

As you and I both know, we're just days away from another Marvel retreat and that kind of makes you sit down and start writing down every damn idea that you have for whatever book that you're writing. And I start pounding out ideas and from as simple an idea Kang shows up and tells the Avengers listen your kids have screwed up the future worse than anything you've ever thought in your whole lives and you have to do something about it or we're all going to die. That idea then sends me down a road of concepts and subjects, but I always kind of know where I'm going and what the point is, but I allow the characters to dictate stuff too. Not the character as far as characterization, but the character's actions and their desires dictate to me not only entire set pieces, but just the tone of the story. And that's been a very good road for me. Sometimes people hear this and they think that because I don't beat out everything to death with note cards and such that I'm writing by the seat of my pants. It's absolutely not the case. What I'm doing is I'm allowing the characters to breathe true life, hopefully, or as close as you can get to it. And then from there I go in and I start beating out what just happened and make something from it. I feel that I'm becoming more and more intuitive and more and more confident in my ability to know the shape of things as I go. But what happens also is even that idea that you have that made you want to do in the first place, you end up not needing it or you end up even though you had your ending locked, you go the opposite way and then you come up with some great spin or twist and you surprise yourself and you allow the characters to find you.

Matt: With my notes I liken it to sort of you're in New York and you decide you're going to drive to Los Angeles, but you don't have a map.

I'll feel like this scene has to be these guys talk to each other on two and a half, three pages, that's it. I got three pages for this conversation and that's it. And even if I get into the writing and like the copy, this could go on for more, this conversation wants to be bigger. I don't quite have the confidence to just trust that character. I still feel the compulsion of this has to end on page 22 and it's got to end with an "Ahhh!" otherwise no one's coming back. I don't have the courage to let things quite breathe as organically as I think they want to breathe. But I'm getting that. I'm finding myself becoming more and more intuitive. The more and more you do, the more confidence in your abilities you've got.

Brian: I also think it comes from where your mind's at, certainly at any day of the week. There are some days where I'm just more interested in Peter Parker and MJ's relationship than I am in Peter Parker hitting anything. And then another day I'll wake up and go I want to write the greatest ninja story that ever lived and have nothing but swords and ninjas with the same amount of passion. So the good news is that if you kind of stay ahead of the curve with deadlines, as you and I both try to do, you allow yourself to follow whatever road your brain's on that day. You're not forcing yourself to write what has to be written today. You know..."I woke up in an Iron Man mood but I went to sleep in a Thor mood." You kind of let the musical winds take you. That's a big part of it too. I think what you were witnessed where you weren't sure what was happening is that you were pretty sure I was writing Avengers and then you turned around and I was writing Powers and you're not sure what happened. "How did you get into Powers mode?" It's hard to describe to people sometimes.

Matt: It's like seeing you with the confidence of knowing this is going to work. This is the story and I'm going to find it. I remember you sent me the Luke and Jessica break-up issue in script form when you had finished it, where they have the fight over the phone.

Brian: Right.

Matt: And I wrote you back with, god that's such a gut punch. It just hurts your stomach to read. And you asked me what's wrong with it. I said it's sad because people are getting a divorce or they're separating and I care about these characters. And I feel if it was up to me I'd be like all right that conversation has to happen over five pages.

Brian: You know what? I didn't block that issue out for just that.

Matt: Yeah, exactly and it shows.

Brian: If it wasn't interesting, I'd gut it. Sometimes I write whole damn things and I go no, this was done about three pages ago and then I just cut it out. Because I am a big believer in "get in late, get out early."

Matt: That's the best thing too, when you're really plugged in it's when your instincts take over as a writer.

Brian: We were talking earlier about the class I'm teaching. I've reread all of Will Eisner's books and all of Scott McCloud's books and I just reread Story by Robert McKee and all those books of stuff that has very, very important rules that should be held to. And some of them have stuff that I go, yeah I don't necessarily totally agree with that or I see that that's a good answer to that writing problem but it's not the only answer to that writing problem. It's very interesting to me and you're right: That Jessica and Luke scene for a film or a television show may be considered poor writing just because it's more of a play. I think that's why we like comics so much is that comics allows every once in a while a playwright's soul to pop out and allow that story to be told that way because that's what it needs. Comics, though they do have sisterly rules to film and television, it's not the same. And I think we should embrace that more often than we do. That we don't have to do it just because it'd look cool in a movie like that.

Matt: I remember one of the biggest sort of editorial go-rounds I had with Axel [Alonso] on X-Men was about a particular issue where I kept trying to work a fight scene into it and he just kept saying but it's interesting enough, it doesn't need the fight scene. But it's X-Men, shouldn't it be there? He's like, no, you've got it, quit it.

Brian: You get it into your head. You can doubt your instinct. You know the medium, the sort of mediocre commonalities, the null sort of perception of what comics are, can get into your head. And the "bang," "sock," "pow" can get into it. You just sort of forget that there's this incredibly potent, incredibly rich soil and you can grow anything. And if that's a play, it's a play, if it's a fight scene, it's a fight scene. It's versatile enough that it can take on whatever, you just have to have the guts to do it, you know to stand up and get it done. By the way, I would like to point out that I just said that about an X-Men comic book and how pretentious is that?

What I like about your writing and what I like about comic writing in general is a juxtaposition of tone and ideas. You'll do the dark conspiracy and then turn the page and something genuinely funny will happy. Or you'll take Tony down the road, you turn the page and something genuinely surprising happens. And I think we both agree we don't see enough of that or are always amazed when even the silliest of books don't take the chance. It's not even that big of chance, it's just to have the author surprise themselves by allowing that. This is a Mel Brooks lesson. I remember years ago he was on a late night show and he was talking about his writing philosophy or his philosophy of comedy. You take something that's smooth and you put it right up against something jagged and you rub them up against each other. And then if you do that, whether you're writing a drama or a comedy, you'll never go wrong. Something interesting will always happen. It's always the juxtaposition of the completely opposite of flavors. That is something like I'll go yeah, okay if this issue was dark, the next issue will be the funniest issue I've ever written. And I see you do that, I see a lot of our favorite writers do that and that excites me to no end. Some books you know what their flavor is and it's almost like you'll never be surprised because you always know it's going to be that flavor and I kind of would rather be surprised. I think from the authors that I like, the kind of writing that I like, I like to be surprised. When I read your X-Men I really don't know where you're going.

Matt: Neither do I so that works out well.

I got that once in an interview and it struck me as really odd, "why is everybody funny in your book?" I like funny. Do you not laugh throughout your life day to day? Even in the worst day of my life I still remember the funny things that happened. Maybe that's just the way my mind works, maybe that's the way my friends are, but I laugh everyday about something.

Brian: It's funny, I agree with you. Humor is what you get the most comments on from readers and it's more about them worrying that you're not taking the characters seriously. Like I had Bucky/Cap make a joke in The Avengers and the joke wasn't the joke he told, but that everyone else in the room just stared at him because they never heard him tell a joke before. And then he kind of didn't know how to react to them not reacting to the joke. And that's what it was about. But in the meantime I got quite a few people upset by the scene. You don't know anybody who doesn't tell jokes, who tried to tell a joke and tanked it? You've not seen that?

Matt: I did that. I had a Punisher bit where he made a reference to Russell Johnson, the guy that played the professor on Gilligan's Island. And it wasn't about oh ha-ha funny Punisher but it was a metaphor for him explaining whatever it was he was trying to explain. But there was something that made the idea of a guy who just walks around and kills people as he sees fit more horrifying to share the banal stuff of daily life, the dumb stuff. That somehow made the Punisher more frightening to me. You find out like all these terrifying details about Mark David Chapman. For me it was that he was reading Catcher in the Rye. It's a weird humanizing detail, like that's something we have in common.

The Heroic Age

Brian: The main Marvel books coming out of Siege are going to be called "The Heroic Age" and The Avengers and Thor and Cap and Iron Man and Fantastic Four are going to have a brighter tone, but only in contrast to the darker villains. It's a very interesting proposal for us as writers because it's been very conspiratorial over the last few years and now there's an air of hope and writing hope and defending hope and creating hope. And instead of deconstructing superheroes because it's very fun to do, we're actually holding them up and saying don't we wish we had heroes like this and wouldn't that be great?

Matt: It's much harder to build than it is to take apart and now it's about the build. We've been in the taking apart business for a long time.

Brian: Yeah totally. We're in the reconstruction business and that's a shift. It's very, very cool. But seems to make the villains and the antagonists much more interesting too. So there you go. It's been a lot of time since you've seen a comic like that and it's a big writing challenge for us in a good way.

Matt: And you know this is what I think, back to you on Avengers 1 and me on Iron Man 25, this is the first time Tony Stark has had a coherent conversation in eight months.

Brian: I've been on Avengers since 2004, and believe it or not, I have never had Tony Stark and Thor have a conversation.

Matt: Right, right, they've never said anything to each other. I've only had Iron Man and Captain America say quite crappy things to each other, kind of them fighting each other.

Brian: That's what I want to talk about as we look forward and we have these new writing challenges. Even when we start this Heroic Age, I could probably stop writing The Avengers now. I've done it but then at the same time it's like I don't think I'm done yet, you know? It doesn't feel done. It feels like I have more stuff to do.

Matt: To sort of circle back around to an earlier question, what is there to do now? We should tell our own stories. We should do so just as an exercise, just to keep loose, to keep excited, to keep invested in the art form. It's sort of like even if you work at a restaurant, you still have to cook your own dinner when you go home. I feel like I should be taking advantage of that and as I'm finding what my work tempo is and how much work I can handle, I can manage this. I can easily manage this. So I'm looking at getting more creator-owned stuff going on. Not because of any particular dissatisfaction doing superhero stuff but just because I'm already doing superhero stuff and you know you can't live on bread alone.

San Diego dreaming...

Brian: How was your last San Diego experience?

Matt: My career trajectory is never more clear to me than it is at San Diego. The San Diego I remember is no longer accessible to me, if you know what I mean. It's overwhelming and it's fantastic. Marvel had me up on the stage surrounded by the Iron Man armors and signing for a streaming line of people. It was crazy, it was berserk but I remember when I could not get a nickel for a cup of coffee at this show. And that was the San Diego in my head. I'm like, oh, hey it's San Diego, it's time to go and hang out with my buddies behind a table and be ignored for three days. Like that's San Diego in my mind and now it's five days and Marvel puts me in this sort of Leni Riefenstahl hall of armor. I have a lot of third person perspective moments. I'm like oh, oh yes...that's different now. What about you?

Brian: I did a one-day [appearance] a couple of years ago, I think it was for Halo or something. But I used to go all the time, when me and David Mack and Mike Oeming were at Caliber or Image and we were up and coming. We used to bring books to the show and it literally was if we do not sell these books we have no way home. There was a couple years where that was absolutely the case. If I don't sell you this copy of Jinx I don't know how I'm getting back to Cleveland. So coming as a guest is much better, it's much more relaxing.

Matt: You know having done that, that is a special kind of hunger where you're trying to figure out am I paying my rent this month or am I buying a plane ticket home from San Diego. That is a bond that you can share with anybody. This is my first year being a guest. I went to WonderCon as a guest last year and that was pretty trippy as this will be, I'm sure.

You can go walk the comics stuff and see all the retailers you know. I got to flip through the entirety of Kamandi 8 and 9 with their covers last year because I was with a friend who knew a guy who knew a guy who was a big Jack Kirby collector and the guy had both entire issues, all the original art and the covers at his booth. And they pulled me back and was like oh sure, have a look. And I got to sit there and hold Kamandi 8 and 9 in my lap and read through them. Only at San Diego, kids. For me the magic is at the far ends of the Exhibit Hall, the far left or the far right. Exactly like my politics.

Brian: There's some quiet magic going on there. There are some really great books that have been created this year and they're just sitting there dying to talk to you. And that's probably the best time you could have. And to my comic book brothers and sisters may I say to you, yes, there are "Hollywood weasels" walking up and down that Artists' Alley. Don't give into it. Don't give in.

Matt: One year, as I was starving to death sitting with my wares, there was a guy with a video camera who had taken his name-tag, turned it around and with a Sharpie written the name of the production company he worked for. And this is a household name production company; this company puts out shows that are in the top 10 every week. Would it not have been written with a Sharpie it would have been impressive. He was there with a 9-year-old kid and the guy was just running his camera over the covers of every comic he saw and the kid was going "lame, lame, lame, cool." And everything that the kid said cool, the guy bought.

Brian: That's how we met, right? (Laughter.) I worry about our brothers and sisters who are not as protected as we are. We have lawyers and agents and such. But there are guys out there making big promises and I just want them to be safe. Because there are some great San Diego stories. We sold Powers at San Diego Comic-Con to Sony right there on the terrace, outside by the boats. Sony bought it before issue 2 hit the stands. And I know everyone's kind of out there hoping that happens, but you know it wasn't me alone. I had a group of people, you know.

Matt: Right, right, right.

Brian: That's my suggestion to the fans: don't leave Artists' Alley. And my suggestion to Artists' Alley is don't believe everything you're told.

Matt Fraction have you got any big announcements for San Diego?

Matt: I think so, yeah. Actually we should have the new Casanova 1 out for San Diego.

Brian: That's cool. See what I just did there, Matt, is I asked you a question that I knew the answer to but at the same time wanted to answer for myself.

Matt: There you go. And you, Brian, do you have anything at San Diego?

Brian: No. No. Me and Alex [Maleev] are going to be debuting our new Icon book at San Diego. And by saying it here in this interview I'm locking it in and guaranteeing that has to happen. I'm excited that Casanova will be at Icon along with you and Alex and Ed Brubaker and Sean Phillips and Mark Millar. What do you have coming out in the mainstream during the time?

Matt: That'll be in the middle of Iron Man and Thor mania. And San Diego's going to be the first show I do after the new baby, so I'm going to be a particular brand of exhausted.

Brian: And you're going to have that funky smell that all new dads have.

Matt: I'm going to have the funky new dad smell. I'll have the new dad weight. I'll have a nice 30 pounds of cereal right around the middle. I'll have a beard.

Brian: You got to do what I do. I gained the 30 pounds and I just kept it so that way every time a new kid comes I'm fine.

Matt: Oh you're like a tree. We can cut you in half and count the rings. That's a second baby.

Brian: I'm bringing my family. My daughter has become Comic-Con obsessed. She loves it. She is excited about San Diego. I'm very excited about that. Take my daughter to work day is going to be at San Diego Comic-Con. That's going to be cool.

And in the end...

Brian: What are your unsung goals now? What are you trying to get? Because now this is what I've found: once you get the book, you get to keep the book, then you go under contract. So the tension of looking for work is eased. And it gets of course replaced by another tension and that's the "what do we do now?" And you start making goals for yourself because you didn't even think you'd get this far. I know we both definitely feel that, that this is much farther then I thought I was going to get to go. Now what?

Matt: It's sort of like you never plan for the day after the zombie movie. What do we do on day two? I don't know what to do.

Brian: And that's what happens. Every time we get our comps, we get a little box of trade books and then I open it up. And my wife pointed out to me, I never do that awkward moment where they go "The book is here!" like from Back to the Future when George McFly opens up his box of books and shows his book and tells his kids, "You know kids, there's nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it." I never do that. I look at it briefly, I rumble something and I throw it under a table.

Matt: And I'm done.

Brian: No, I go "now what?" Great, that happened, now what do I do? So that is definitely where I'm at. I've been thrilled that Marvel kind of put the flag in the sand for Heroic Age for us because I think it got us to label it as the end of a decade. It feels like starting something new.

Matt: This is the unspoken subtext of this editorial retreat we're about to go into:  now what? That is the perfect way to articulate that.

Brian: But see I loved it because made me feel like what now...do something. Even though I'm still on The Avengers I'm writing it like I'm just taking it over for the first time.

Matt: We've been talking about this for the last week with each other but you've been dotting I's and crossing T's on the new Avengers 1 and I've been dotting I's and crossing T's on Iron Man 25 and it's both inordinately difficult because it's different now. It's clearly a thing that's tapping at the fact that we're in a big "what kind of place now?" going forward. But I suspect though you meant in a more career kind of way. For me I feel like I know all these amazing people now. I'm friends with people I used to be, and still am, fans of. Like John Romita Jr. doing the Free Comic Book Day issue of Iron Man and Thor. You know the first issue of X-Men I ever bought he drew.

Brian: Yeah, that is very surreal.

Actually my morning was like this because I got a half an issue of Daredevil from Klaus Janson and then I got pages from Alan Davis and John [Romita Jr.] started stuff and you're like what the hell is going on? Because it used to be us and our pals putting on a show.

Matt: Yeah we used to put on a show in a barn and now John Romita Jr. calls you on the phone and you poop your pants a little bit.

Brian: But for me it was Alex Maleev and David Mack and Mike Oeming, and we all grew up together and we all kind of made it together and we're still making books together. But now there's this other element of our life that is what the hell? Like there's Klaus Janson Daredevil pages and they're going to have my name on it. That seems weird to me.

Matt: Get a time machine and go back and tell 10-year-old me it all turns out okay.